STAR
INTERVIEW: Talking Point: BBC’s Robin Lustig and President
Obasanjo of Nigeria
Forwarded
by Mobolaji E. Aluko
Unofficial
Transcript of “Talking Point”: BBC’s Robin Lustig and President Obasanjo
of Nigeria
All errors not due to BBC! Saturday, February 16, 2002
Robin Lustig: Hello, and welcome to Talking Point, from the
Presidential Villa in Abuja, Nigeria. I am Robin Lustig. My guest today is
president Olusegun Obasanjo. He
is one of the most powerful politicians in Africa, the man who leads the
continent’s most populous nation. He was elected three
years ago after 15 years of military rule. He was himself in the late 1970s an
un-elected military ruler of Nigeria. It was then that he gained an
international reputation as the first military ruler in Africa
to hand over power voluntarily to an elected civilian administration
So how does he feel now as a democratically elected politician? How does he
answer his critics, who say too little has changed in Nigeria since the return
to democracy, and what does he think
the role of the military should be in a country that is still suffering from
so much violence and corruption?
We had a huge number of emails and phone calls from all over the world.
In this program, president Obasanjo will be answering some of them.
Robin
Lustig:
Mr. President, Thank you very much for joining us on Talking Point. A
great
many people are hoping to talk to you directly. Our first caller is Kolade
Akinyele in London who wants to ask about the terrible arms dump explosion
last month which resulted in the death of more than 1000 people.
Kolade Akinyele (London): Good Afternoon, my president. Following the recent
bomb blast on the 27th of January, why has no one taken political
responsibility following the fact that over 1000 people,mainly children, lost their lives at that incident? No one has taken political
responsibility.
Obasanjo: It depends on what you mean. What I am the political head and chief
executive of this country, anything that happens, good or bad, I am in charge.
If there is any responsibility to be taken, I don’t shy away from taking the
responsibility. But in this particular case, what happened there was an
explosion in an ammunition dump in a military cantonment, and in that
explosion, so far I have not received report of any live being lost in that
military cantonment. About five or six kilometers away, out of panic, out of
stampede, people running for dear life, because of the explosion that occurred, people ran into swamp and lost their lives. If there is any
immediate responsibility to be taken, that something has gone wrong, of course
I take it, but what must be done in that situation is that what really has
gone wrong. My
military experience and training has taught me that when a thing like that
happens, we must first
investigate. The military will set up inquiry panel, and this has been done.
What is the cause of that explosion?
Robin
Lustig:
Will the results be public? Will everybody be able to see what the results?
Will you give an undertaking that some people will be punished?
Obasanjo: It will be made public. If somebody has to be punished, he will be
punished. That is the normal thing
Robin
Lustig:
What do you think, Kolade?
Kolade: In a democratic country and process, the Minister of Defence
(which in this case is retired Danjuma) should have taken responsibility
for the way in which the dump was left for several years, not maintained,
without due care, which led to the death of over a 1000 people.
Obasanjo: That may not be absolutely correct. At this point, we are not saying
everything because an enquiry is
already going on. When I asked, the
Army Chief of Staff said that when he took
his new job not too long ago, the first station he visited was Lagos, and the
one of the places he visited was this ammunition depot. He saw the condition,
and he asked the Brigade or Divisional Commander, what can we do. He said that
he needs three and a half million naira to put things right
urgently. The Army Chief of Staff gave him the money, to the commander six
months ago.
So
you cannot talk of absolute neglect. This
is not the time to say all that, let us have an enquiry, let all the facts be
made available to the panel of inquiry, and let the absolute position of things
be
known.
Robin Lustig:
What about the other ammunition dumps in the country? Must there be not
be an urgent review of all of these other dumps?
Obasanjo: Not only to the Military and Ministry of defence, but I have asked the
governors in which the ammunition dumps are in their jurisdiction should be part
of it. Because the governors share of the running around after such incidents.
Philip Mogbok (Houston): Mr President, my questions is about
Elections 2003. With the level of insecurity are experiencing now, to
some of us it seems that some people are trying
to sabotage the effort of your government. How are we guaranteed that the
elections will be conducted fair and free?
Obasanjo: That will not be an unreasonable question. In Nigeria too, people are
asking that question. I am aware of that concern, which led me to call for a
retreat which ended only last Sunday involving all stake holders – elected men
and women at the state, federal and local government level, party activists. We
got together to look at what are
the causes, what can we do and what must be
do. It was very interesting and exciting four days when people came out and
spoke their minds. A few things came out. One: everybody at the meeting took a
pledge that as far as they are concerned, they will not participate in violence
and they will fight against violence in politics. Two: the decision was taken
that the INEC and the registered parties
should work out a code of conduct for all politicians. They have accepted and
are working on it. Three: that the three registered parties should meet to work
out how they will be decide and fight against violence
in the electoral process. They are meeting next Tuesday. We expect that
the first thing that they will do is that they will come out with a resolution
that anybody engaged in violence in an electoral process will be banned from
contesting in an election, and banned from one party, he will not be allowed in
another party. A bill to the National Assembly may also be forthcoming to back
whatever they are putting across. So, Philip, your concern is the concern of
many of us, but I am very hopeful
that we will have a fair, free and
non-violent.
Robin Lustig:
A listener Mark Dixon in Britain sent email: although your excellency
has made some inroads into corruption in Nigeria, how many generations will it
take for such an entrenched cultural system of corruption is changed?
Obasanjo: Not question of generation, but one of critical mass of people. Are we
getting critical mass of people whose attitude and orientation is changing? I
won’t talk in terms of generations. What we
are trying to do – some people say, Well, how many people have you jailed? The
answer is not jailing, but how many minds have we changed?
Robin Lustig:
But sending people to jail surely is the best way to send a message that
corruption is not acceptable,
convicting people who have committed a criminal act?
Obasanjo: We are doing that. We have a judge of a high court who is standing
trial for demanding, receiving and
for not reporting., which is all part of three charges. I am wondering how he
will get out of those three charges. That is for a high court judge. So if it
can happen to a high court judge, then it can happen to anybody.
Robin Lustig:
You set up the Human Rights Violation Commission. You
testified September 11 in the Oputa Panel. But three former military
leaders (Generals Babangida Buhari, and Abubakar) all refused to testify. What
does that tell about the attitudes toward these kinds of questions?
Obasanjo: I don’t..I….…I
…for me, as you rightly said, I went before the Oputa
and testified and even cleared what has been lingering on….Fela
Ransome-Kuti Kalakuta Republic…
who set it on fire, and I used that opportunity to lay
it dead. If I were those leaders, I would have used the opportunity
which the
Oputa
panel afforded them to put to rest.
Robin Lustig:
The people in Nigeria say that it shows is that the army, the military
is above the
law.
Obasanjo: They are not army, they are not military because they are retired. If
I am not above the law, nobody can claim to be above the law more than I
am. If you talk of them as
military, they are not more military as I am. If you are talking of them as
former heads of state, there is nobody that is more former head of state than I
am. If you are talking of them as
incumbent, there is nobody more incumbent than I am. But what I am saying is that it is in their own best interest to lay
to rest. Some of
the charges are unfounded from what I know. Same as the ones against me as
military head of state. But I will not say that because A does what I will not
approve of, then I will do what A does.
Adesina Somoye (Lagos): Mr. President, I must congratulate you for all the
efforts that you have been making since your inception as president of Nigeria
since 1999, to make Nigeria a better place.
But I believe you are leaving some areas untouched with are having a
negative effect on your presidency.
Somoye: I will just give you a list. The
issue of security in the Nigerian community. Population
census is another critical issue. The correction of the structural
imbalance since the military rule.
Obasanjo: You have raised
three issues, that I will try and address.
One is about security.
To say that we are not doing anything is being done about security is not
correct. When we came in, I appreciated the need to deal with security, but as
much as possible, only in exceptional circumstances that I would
Robin
Lustig:
It goes beyond the numbers…
Obasanjo:
Yes, it goes beyond the numbers, but it is important. Then we will
increase the salary. We increased the salary. There is no case is we haven’t
doubled the salary.
Robin
Lustig:
You were quoted in the New York Times as saying that “Nigeria is
steadily suffering from the suffocating influences of violence and
lawlessness”
Obasanjo: I don’t know where you got that quote. Those could not be my words.
The New York Times must have manufactured that.
Robin
Lustig:
10,000 people have died in your administration……..violent deaths?
Obasanjo: I wonder how many have died in the US in the past three years. Find
out how many
have died in the United States or even just in New York during that same period
from violent
salary, accommodation, improving communication and mobility, improved weapons are
part of the answers, re-training and reorientation. All these we are doing. Like
you yourself asked, How many generations do we need to change the orientation? I
believe that what we have done in the last three years,
if we continue to build on it, three years from now, it will be much much
better situation
Robin
Lustig: Violence in Nigeria goes before common criminality There is an ethnic
and
religious dimension. Let me read you an email from Ekwueme Ezike Cologne.
What is your government doing to stop the ethnic and religious killings
in Nigeria?
Obasanjo: What he calls ethnic or religious killings – not all are
ethnic, religious. In a situation of unemplyement all over the world,
even in your country, when there is depression, as friendly as they are, they
become nasty to foreigners, because they believe that people are taking jobs
from them. We have suffered from
about 15 years of military rule in this country.
What we had was disinvestment, unemployment. No investment coming in.
Every little thing, even his brother, rather than tolerate, he becomes
impatient. It is part of the decay, the morale of the previous regime that we
have to deal with. When we came in, we have to create conducive environment,
only private investment to create employment. Without that, then the killing,
the violence may go on. it is very
very bad vicious circle. How
do you break the vicious circle?
Robin
Lustig:
What do you say to the Governor of Lagos who said the other day that
many of the recent
troubles in Nigeria – violence in Lagos, police strikes,
arms dump explosion - were all part of the plot of the retired generals
to destabilize democracy in Nigeria.
Obasanjo: Let him point out the retired generals and they will be dealt with.
Obasanjo:
He has not given me the reports.
Robin
Lustig:
You have not seen the reports?
Obasanjo: No
Robin
Lustig:
Let us take a caller then, Oscar Teddy in Vienna
Obasanjo:
Oscar, good afternoon, how are you?
Oscar: Good afternoon my president, I am alright sir. Yeah, I am OK, I am from Agbor Delta State.
Obasanjo:
I was in Delta State about two weeks ago.
Oscar:
Yeah, I read that on the Internet. I
saw that. It is nice you went to my place Sir..
Ehen, ehnen ! I thank you
for being at Agbor, Sir. I
have two questions about electricity to ask you. Please sir, I will be very kind
if you if you will give me Yes and No answer.
Please Yes or no. The first
question, sir, Is it true that last
year as reported last years there was power failure when your
plane was about to land
about to land either in Lagos or Abuja. Is it true, yes or no sir?
Obasanjo: Well, it is not as simple as that.
I won’t say it is true or not true. What really happened
was that they were switching… from the normal general rule is that when I am
landing, they should
switch on the generator just to make assurance doubly sure, and in the process,
there was just a flicker
when they were switching from NEPA which was not off.
Obasanjo:
Did you understand my explanation?
Oscar: I understand your explanation, but you still fail to convince me. This is
because last year, during the Junior World Cup, I was watching in Vienna, and
the whole world was watching the Junior World Cup.
Electricity went out at National Stadium, Lagos, meaning sir, there was
indeed power failure. My second question sir: I came to Nigeria, during the Xmas
and New Year Holiday, and I returned January 31. To my greatest surprise, where
I was living at Lagos at Okota, we never had 10 hours power supply for one
month. You have been around the world, around the world, sir, you have been to
developed and undeveloped, Sir, could you give one or two countries that you
have visited with comparable wealth
etc. as Nigeria that doesn’t have steady power supply, Sir?
Obasanjo: Oscar, it is not about comparison, but how bad your country has been
run down by previous administrations. If what I did when I was last in
government, if people built on it, it would have
been a different story. Let me remind you: There was only Kainji with major
power supply in this country, but in my time we built Shiroro (600MW), Jebba
(about 540 MW), I planned Egbin completed by the administration that came after
me; we built Sapele (Delta) and we increased Afam. But what then happened was
that for almost 20 years, there was no addition, if anything it was run down. So
when I came in, we were only able to create 1400 MW, not even for a city.
Lustig:
But you gave a pledge last year…
Obasanjo:
Robin, Robin, wait, wait…. But when I came, I realised I thought that it
was the
fault of the men, I sacked the first lot, but I discovered that it was not
theirs alone but the cumulative fault of the previous administrations. So the
first thing to pay attention to is energy, to generate enough, and be able to
transmit what we generate and distribute what we transmit. We have been able to
generate 4000 MW, which is more than
the highest demand on record that we have in Nigeria, but we still have
bottleneck in transmission and
distribution. We have about 4000 transformers now coming in to help
in the area of transmission. …….Oscar,
that is what is happening. We have
met the target as far as generation
is considered, and we are gradually trying to improve transmission and distribution. So when you come back home, I
hope that you will be kind enough to call me and
report to me.
Robin
Lustig:
There is a call from
Celestine Onwuka (from Santiago Chile):
Obasanjo:
Cele, Cele, Celestine….
Robin
Lustig:
Ok, it was about Sharia: Why
do you let Sharia Law exist in a secular state?
Obasanjo: We are not a secular but a multi-religious state. That is what we call
ourselves in the Constitution.
Robin
Lustig: Let me read an email of Frances Guandi in Cameroon. What is your
personal stance on Sharia Law and does
your administration recognize it?
Obasanjo: Of course.
I was the first, when I was Head of State, who put Sharia Law, Court of
Appeal in the Constitution of
Nigeria. It is part of our Constitution, Sharia
is part of the life and soul of a
Muslim. In 1978 we had a Constitutuent Assembly which reached an impasse on
Sharia at Court of Appeal, Federal Court of Appeal or no Sharia Court of Appeal.
Because at the State level every state that feel that they have enough Muslims
in the population, they have Sharia law.
Robin
Lustig: Still on the question of
Sharia, Do you see any connection between its extension and application to many
Northern states and the
increase in violence between Christians
and Muslim communities in Nigeria?
Obasanjo: I would not say “No” and “Yes”, because I would like to see it
proven, statistics and how. Yes,
There is a coincidence of timing. Take Kaduna where we had the first blow out.
For one or two reasons, Kaduna has always been a hotbed. Jos had been quiet for
many many years. There have always have been Natives, settlers.
Natives were mainly Christians, settlers were mainly Muslims. That also
has been there for many many years
Lustig:
There were 5000 people have been killed in Jos in September alone!
Obasanjo:
Maybe Sharia has
accentuated political violence, maybe not. But I will want experts to
look at what has happened and be able to say that with statistics. The issue of
Sharia, what I said and which I still believe is that for a Moslem, Sharia is for Muslim what the Ten
Commandments is for a Christian.
Robin
Lustig:
As a Christian do you not see a problem with a system of law which
specifies the amputation of a hand for theft, the stoning of a woman to death
for adultery?
Obasanjo: Not because of my Christian, Out of my own humane-ness and humanity, I
will not
want to see a woman or man stoned to death.
If a woman would be killed, I would want a less painful death
for her offence. That is my choice.
Robin
Lustig:
And do you, as head of state, reserve the right to see that your choice
is observed?
Obasanjo: My choice in a democracy can only be canvassed. In a dictatorship, my
choice of course must be carried. In a democracy, it can only be canvassed. If
my choice is not carried, then it is not carried. I think that is what democracy is about.
Onyeri Onumah (USA): About two years, you spoke at Harvard Kennedy School of
Government,
Obasanjo: Onyeri, wait until that time when I put up my case for re-election.
Robin
Lustig:
Well, then, let us re-cast the question… What would you say to
Nigerians who ask about what have
you achieved over these nearly three years that you have been president?
Obasanjo:
Well, you are not the one asking the question, Robin!
….But I would say (that we have achieved) a lot.
I have given hope to Nigeria. This is a country about three years ago
that was almost in
tatters. Today, no serious-minded Nigeria is talking of breaking Nigeria up.
Nigerians
today have hope, and when you have hope, you have a lot. Nigerians today feel
that they can get
justice. Nigerians today feel that people cannot get away with impunity, unlike
before. The fact that we had something like Oputa panel, many people didn’t
feel that was possible. You have mentioned
that 3 former heads of state did not come to clear themselves in quotes as it
were, but that
does not obviate the fact that this was a significant thing in Nigeria.
Today, an average Nigerian worker takes home a living wage. Three years
ago, an average Nigerian was not on a living wage.
Robin
Lustig:
I have seen figures in recent World Bank figures put two-thirds of
Nigerians live below the poverty line, compared with 40% 15 years ago, people
seem to be getting poorer in Nigeria.
Obasanjo: Yes, but if I hadn’t come, it would have been three-quarters
Robin
Lustig:
Let me read an email from
Akeem in Virginia: Would it not have been more respectable if you just served
one term, that way you would set an example for
Nigerian future leaders that presidency is not for life?
Obasanjo: I have not looked for presidency for life, but those who quote Mandela
must look at the different situations. Obasanjo situation and Mandela situation:
are they the same? I will not agree with him, you must be able to say “Yes”
Mandela has been to prison before head of state. I
have been head of state before going to prison and I am now again head
of state after going to prison. So our situations are different.
John Barber (Britain): President Obasanjo, how can you and other African heads
of state tolerate what is happening in Zimbabwe?
Obasanjo: It depends on what you regard as what is happening.
Robin
Lustig:
High levels of political violence?
Obasanjo:
Well, I went to Zimbabwe. For me and for the Commonwealth ministers who
Obasanjo: Of course!…. In his own
way. Observers – not Britain….
Robin
Lustig:
And other EU!
Obasanjo: No, some yes, some no. EU
and ACP countries.
Robin
Lustig:
Do you think that is acceptable?
Obasanjo:
For me, I may not do it that way, but he is a sovereign nation and
leader. Maybe I will handle it that way or differently…The point is this: we
must also see his own point of view. I don’t
Obasanjo: Well if they make such condition, I will be happy to do that.
Abioye Abiola: My question is about Nigerian professionals
living abroad. What is the government doing in order to help Nigerians
return to help the situation?
Obasanjo: Abioye, You have asked a very very good question.
About two years ago, I went to America and Britain and
established NIDO – Nigerians in the Diaspora Organization – in the
Americas and in Europe. They are registered,
independent autonomous organization but are given
assistance by Nigerian High Commission in London, and then Nigerian Embassies all over
Europe
and Nigerian Ambassador in Washington and and
Embassies elsewhere in the America. They are already becoming a formidable
force. We have not established NIDO
Asia, somewhere central so that those of you in Asia can use as a central
contact place. Now that you have
raised the point, we can see what we can do about NIDO Asia……What we are
doing, Abioye, is to get
you abroad together as a body, rather than deal with your professionals
individually. NIDO can do a
lot for itself and it can act as a body of consultants for home government,
state, local, federal governments, ministries,
parastatals, etc. To see
what can be done at home. A
lot is being done. Rather than deal
one by one, which will be difficult, but through an organization, you can help
yourself. There will be self-help and government help can be done
Michael Ikhariale (Cambridge Massachusetts): Hello my president. In terms of
achievement
and overall effectiveness, how would you compare your previous experience as
military head of state and
present experience as democratically elected
president?
Obasanjo: The two are not the same. One, as military head of state, I am both
the
executive and legislature and executive. I don’t have to deal with any
legislative body. I make law and I execute it. That makes a world of difference.
Achievement is quicker
and easier, and it can be established and seen. That is one significant
difference. As a result of that difference, now I consult, I even have people
who do not belong to my party in my government. I have members
of my government in other societies, they have a party and party discipline.
Here, members
of my opposition are members of my party rather than the other party.
That is one of the things that you find when we are doing what we are
doing. But one good thing about the democratic dispensation is that it gives
everybody a feeling of participating. At least you can be heard, you can make
yourself relevant, not necessarily in terms of being in government but in terms
of contributing to government.
Robin
Lustig:
Do you sometimes find yourself thinking to yourself that this would be
easier done if you were a military ruler?
Obasanjo: No. Even as a military
ruler, I have been brought up in a democratic way. Even in my
family, we sit down though I exercise a little power in some essential areas. WE
sit down and
Democratically
discuss. I have never longed for
the military. Since you ask, that is
why I point out the difference. I will defend the democratic process and
dispensation any day.
Robin
Lustig:
And there we must end it. President
Obasanjo, thank you very much.