STAR INTERVIEW: Talking Point: BBC’s Robin Lustig and President
Obasanjo of Nigeria

Forwarded by Mobolaji E. Aluko

Unofficial Transcript of “Talking Point”: BBC’s Robin Lustig and President Obasanjo of Nigeria
All errors not due to BBC! Saturday, February 16, 2002



Robin Lustig: Hello, and welcome to Talking Point, from the Presidential Villa in Abuja, Nigeria. I am Robin Lustig. My guest today is president Olusegun  Obasanjo. He is one of the most powerful politicians in Africa, the man who leads the continent’s most populous nation. He was elected three
years ago after 15 years of military rule. He was himself in the late 1970s an un-elected military ruler of Nigeria. It was then that he gained an international reputation as the first military ruler in Africa
to hand over power voluntarily to an elected civilian administration

So how does he feel now as a democratically elected politician? How does he answer his critics, who say too little has changed in Nigeria since the return to democracy, and what does he think
the role of the military should be in a country that is still suffering from so much violence and corruption?

We had a huge number of emails and phone calls from all over the world.  In this program, president Obasanjo will be answering some of them.

Robin Lustig:  Mr. President, Thank you very much for joining us on Talking Point. A great
many people are hoping to talk to you directly. Our first caller is Kolade Akinyele in London who wants to ask about the terrible arms dump explosion last month which resulted in the death of more than 1000 people.

Kolade Akinyele (London): Good Afternoon, my president. Following the recent bomb blast on the 27th of January, why has no one taken political responsibility following the fact that over 1000 people,mainly children, lost their lives at that incident? No one has taken political responsibility.

Obasanjo: It depends on what you mean. What I am the political head and chief executive of this country, anything that happens, good or bad, I am in charge. If there is any responsibility to be taken, I don’t shy away from taking the responsibility. But in this particular case, what happened there was an explosion in an ammunition dump in a military cantonment, and in that explosion, so far I have not received report of any live being lost in that military cantonment. About five or six kilometers away, out of panic, out of stampede, people running for dear life, because of the explosion that occurred, people ran into swamp and lost their lives. If there is any immediate responsibility to be taken, that something has gone wrong, of course I take it, but what must be done in that situation is that what really has gone wrong. My military experience and training has taught me that when a thing like that happens, we must first investigate. The military will set up inquiry panel, and this has been done.  What is the cause of that explosion?

Robin Lustig: Will the results be public? Will everybody be able to see what the results?  Will you give an undertaking that some people will be punished?

Obasanjo: It will be made public. If somebody has to be punished, he will be punished. That is the normal thing 

Robin Lustig:  What do you think, Kolade?

Kolade: In a democratic country and process, the Minister of Defence  (which in this case is retired Danjuma) should have taken responsibility for the way in which the dump was left for several years, not maintained, without due care, which led to the death of over a 1000 people.

Obasanjo: That may not be absolutely correct. At this point, we are not saying everything because an  enquiry is already  going on. When I asked, the Army Chief of Staff said that when he took
his new job not too long ago, the first station he visited was Lagos, and the one of the places he visited was this ammunition depot. He saw the condition, and he asked the Brigade or Divisional Commander, what can we do. He said that he needs three and a half million naira to put things right
urgently. The Army Chief of Staff gave him the money, to the commander six months ago.

So you cannot talk of absolute neglect.  This is not the time to say all that, let us have an enquiry, let all the facts be made available to the panel of inquiry, and let the absolute position of things be
known.

Robin Lustig: What about the other ammunition dumps in the country? Must there be not be an urgent review of all of these other dumps?

Obasanjo: Not only to the Military and Ministry of defence, but I have asked the governors in which the ammunition dumps are in their jurisdiction should be part of it. Because the governors share of the running around after such incidents.

Philip Mogbok (Houston): Mr President, my questions is about  Elections 2003. With the level of insecurity are experiencing now, to some of us it seems that some people are trying
to sabotage the effort of your government. How are we guaranteed that the elections will be conducted fair and free?

Obasanjo:
That will not be an unreasonable question. In Nigeria too, people are asking that question. I am aware of that concern, which led me to call for a retreat which ended only last Sunday involving all stake holders – elected men and women at the state, federal and local government level, party activists. We got  together to look at what are the causes, what can we do and what must  be do. It was very interesting and exciting four days when people came out and spoke their minds. A few things came out. One: everybody at the meeting took a pledge that as far as they are concerned, they will not participate in violence and they will fight against violence in politics. Two: the decision was taken that the INEC and the registered  parties should work out a code of conduct for all politicians. They have accepted and are working on it. Three: that the three registered parties should meet to work out how they will be decide and fight against violence  in the electoral process. They are meeting next Tuesday. We expect that the first thing that they will do is that they will come out with a resolution that anybody engaged in violence in an electoral process will be banned from contesting in an election, and banned from one party, he will not be allowed in another party. A bill to the National Assembly may also be forthcoming to back whatever they are  putting across. So, Philip, your concern is the concern of many of us,  but I am very hopeful that we will  have a fair, free and non-violent.

Robin Lustig: A listener Mark Dixon in Britain sent email: although your excellency has made some inroads into corruption in Nigeria, how many generations will it take for such an entrenched cultural system of corruption is changed?

Obasanjo: Not question of generation, but one of critical mass of people. Are we getting critical mass of people whose attitude and orientation is changing? I won’t talk in terms of generations. What we
are trying to do – some people say, Well, how many people have you jailed? The answer is not jailing, but how many minds have we changed?

Robin Lustig: But sending people to jail surely is the best way to send a message that corruption is  not acceptable, convicting people who have committed a criminal act?

Obasanjo: We are doing that. We have a judge of a high court who is standing trial for  demanding, receiving and for not reporting., which is all part of three charges. I am wondering how he will get out of those three charges. That is for a high court judge. So if it can happen to a high court judge, then it can happen to anybody.

Robin Lustig: You set up the Human Rights Violation Commission. You  testified September 11 in the Oputa Panel. But three former military leaders (Generals Babangida Buhari, and Abubakar) all refused to testify. What does that tell about the attitudes toward these kinds of questions?

Obasanjo: I  don’t..I….…I …for me, as you rightly said, I went before the Oputa  and testified and even cleared what has been lingering on….Fela Ransome-Kuti  Kalakuta Republic… who set it on fire, and I used that opportunity to lay  it dead. If I were those leaders, I would have used the opportunity  which the

Oputa panel afforded them to put to rest.

Robin Lustig: The people in Nigeria say that it shows is that the army, the military is above the
law.

Obasanjo: They are not army, they are not military because they are retired. If  I am not above the law, nobody can claim to be above the law more than I am.   If you talk of them as military, they are not more military as I am. If you are talking of them as former heads of state, there is nobody that is more former head of state than I am.  If you are talking of them as incumbent, there is nobody more incumbent than I am. But what I am saying is that it is in their own best interest to lay to rest. Some of the charges are unfounded from what I know. Same as the ones against me as military head of state. But I will not say that because A does what I will not approve of, then I will do what A does. 

Adesina Somoye (Lagos): Mr. President, I must congratulate you for all the efforts that you have been making since your inception as president of Nigeria since 1999, to make Nigeria a better place.  But I believe you are leaving some areas untouched with are having a negative effect on your presidency.

Obasanjo: I am ready to learn from you, Ade…

Somoye: I will just give you a list.  The issue of security in the Nigerian community. Population  census is another critical issue. The correction of the structural  imbalance since the military rule.

Robin Lustig: The issue of security……

Obasanjo:  You have raised three issues, that I will try and address.  One is about  security.  To say that we are not doing anything is being done about security is not correct. When we came in, I appreciated the need to deal with security, but as much as possible, only in exceptional circumstances that I would want to put  military men to do what policemen should do. I believe that Police should do the routine security work. But we are grossly underpoliced. We took over 120,000 policemen to 120 million population. You can see that it was 1 policeman to 1 million.  Not only grossly  underpoliced, the policemen had very low morale, their welfare very inadequately taken care  of,  very poorly equipped, outmatched, outgunned by the armed robbers. The first thing we did is to say that we will double the number of police from 120,000 to 250,000 in a space of  three to  four years….

Robin Lustig:  It goes beyond the numbers…

Obasanjo:  Yes, it goes beyond the numbers, but it is important. Then we will increase the salary. We increased the salary. There is no case is we haven’t doubled the salary.

Robin Lustig: You were quoted in the New York Times as saying that “Nigeria is steadily suffering from the suffocating influences of violence and lawlessness”

Obasanjo:
I don’t know where you got that quote. Those could not be my words. The New York Times must have manufactured that.

Robin Lustig: 10,000 people have died in your administration……..violent deaths?

Obasanjo: I wonder how many have died in the US in the past three years. Find out how many
have died in the United States or even just in New York during that same period from violent
deaths. The issue is  “Are we making progress?”  We are making progress, not enough. Number,
salary, accommodation, improving communication and mobility, improved weapons are part of the answers, re-training and reorientation. All these we are doing. Like you yourself asked, How many generations do we need to change the orientation? I believe that what we have done in the last three years,  if we continue to build on it, three years from now, it will be much much better situation

Robin Lustig: Violence in Nigeria goes before common criminality There is an ethnic and
religious dimension. Let me read you an email from Ekwueme Ezike Cologne.  What is your government doing to stop the ethnic and religious killings in Nigeria?

Obasanjo: What he calls ethnic or religious killings – not all are  ethnic, religious. In a situation of unemplyement all over the world, even in your country, when there is depression, as friendly as they are, they become nasty to foreigners, because they believe that people are taking jobs
from them.  We have suffered from about 15 years of military rule in this country.  What we had was disinvestment, unemployment. No investment coming in.  Every little thing, even his brother, rather than tolerate, he becomes impatient. It is part of the decay, the morale of the previous regime that we have to deal with. When we came in, we have to create conducive environment, only private investment to create employment. Without that, then the killing, the violence may go on.  it is very very bad vicious circle.   How do you break the vicious circle?

Robin Lustig: What do you say to the Governor of Lagos who said the other day that many of the recent troubles in Nigeria – violence in Lagos, police strikes,  arms dump explosion - were all part of the plot of the retired generals to destabilize democracy in Nigeria. 

Obasanjo: Let him point out the retired generals and they will be dealt with.

Robin Lustig:  He says he knows from intelligence reports what is happening.

Obasanjo: He has not given me the reports.

Robin Lustig: You have not seen the reports?

Obasanjo: No

Robin Lustig:  Let us take a caller then, Oscar Teddy in Vienna

Obasanjo:  Oscar, good afternoon, how are you?

Oscar: Good afternoon my president, I am alright sir.  Yeah, I am OK, I am from Agbor Delta State.  

Obasanjo:  I was in Delta State about two weeks ago.

Oscar:  Yeah, I read that on the Internet.  I saw that. It is nice you went to my place Sir..  Ehen, ehnen !  I thank you for being at Agbor, Sir.   I have two questions about electricity to ask you. Please sir, I will be very kind if you if you will give me Yes and No answer.    Please Yes or no.  The first question, sir,  Is it true that last year as reported last years there was power failure when your  plane was about to  land about to land either in Lagos or Abuja. Is it true, yes or no sir?

Obasanjo: Well, it is not as simple as that.  I won’t say it is true or not true. What really happened
was that they were switching… from the normal general rule is that when I am landing, they should
switch on the generator just to make assurance doubly sure, and in the process, there was just a flicker when they were switching from NEPA which was not off.

Robin Lustig: Oscar, you had a concern about electricity in general, did you not?

Obasanjo:  Did you understand my explanation?

Oscar: I understand your explanation, but you still fail to convince me. This is because last year, during the Junior World Cup, I was watching in Vienna, and the whole world was watching the Junior World Cup.  Electricity went out at National Stadium, Lagos, meaning sir, there was indeed power failure.  My second question sir: I came to Nigeria, during the Xmas and New Year Holiday, and I returned January 31. To my greatest surprise, where I was living at Lagos at Okota, we never had 10 hours power supply for one month. You have been around the world, around the world, sir, you have been to developed and undeveloped, Sir, could you give one or two countries that you have visited with comparable wealth etc. as Nigeria that doesn’t have steady power supply, Sir? 

Obasanjo: Oscar, it is not about comparison, but how bad your country has been run down by previous administrations. If what I did when I was last in government, if people built on it, it would have been a different story. Let me remind you: There was only Kainji with major power supply in this country, but in my time we built Shiroro (600MW), Jebba (about 540 MW), I planned Egbin completed by the administration that came after me; we built Sapele (Delta) and we increased Afam. But what then happened was that for almost 20 years, there was no addition, if anything it was run down. So when I came in, we were only able to create 1400 MW, not even for a city.

Lustig:  But you gave a pledge last year…

Obasanjo:  Robin, Robin, wait, wait…. But when I came, I realised I thought that it was the
fault of the men, I sacked the first lot, but I discovered that it was not theirs alone but the cumulative fault of the previous administrations. So the first thing to pay attention to is energy, to generate enough, and be able to transmit what we generate and distribute what we transmit. We have been able to generate 4000 MW, which is more  than the highest demand on record that we have in Nigeria, but we still have bottleneck in  transmission and distribution. We have about 4000 transformers now coming in to help
in the area of transmission.  …….Oscar, that is what is happening.  We have met the target as far as  generation is considered, and we are gradually trying to improve  transmission and distribution. So when you come back home, I hope that you will be kind enough to call me and  report to me.

Robin Lustig:  There is a call from Celestine Onwuka (from Santiago Chile): 

Obasanjo:  Cele, Cele,  Celestine….

Robin Lustig:  Ok, it was about Sharia:  Why do you let Sharia Law exist in a secular state?

Obasanjo: We are not a secular but a multi-religious state. That is what we call ourselves in the Constitution.

Robin Lustig: Let me read an email of Frances Guandi in Cameroon. What is your personal stance on Sharia Law and  does your administration recognize it?

Obasanjo:  Of course.  I was the first, when I was Head of State, who put Sharia Law, Court of Appeal in the  Constitution of Nigeria. It is part of our Constitution,  Sharia is part of the  life and soul of a Muslim. In 1978 we had a Constitutuent Assembly which reached an impasse on Sharia at Court of Appeal, Federal Court of Appeal or no Sharia Court of Appeal. Because at the State level every state that feel that they have enough Muslims in the population, they have Sharia law.

Robin Lustig: Still on  the question of Sharia, Do you see any connection between its extension and application to many Northern states   and the increase in violence between  Christians and Muslim communities in Nigeria?

Obasanjo: I would not say “No” and “Yes”, because I would like to see it proven, statistics and how.  Yes, There is a coincidence of timing. Take Kaduna where we had the first blow out. For one or two reasons, Kaduna has always been a hotbed. Jos had been quiet for many many years. There have always have been Natives, settlers.   Natives were mainly Christians, settlers were mainly Muslims. That also has been there for many many years

Lustig:  There were 5000 people have been killed in Jos in September alone!

Obasanjo:  Maybe Sharia has accentuated political violence, maybe not. But I will want experts to
look at what has happened and be able to say that with statistics. The issue of Sharia, what I said and which I still believe is that for a Moslem, Sharia is for Muslim what the  Ten Commandments is for a Christian.

Robin Lustig: As a Christian do you not see a problem with a system of law which specifies the amputation of a hand for theft, the stoning of a woman to death for adultery?

Obasanjo: Not because of my Christian, Out of my own humane-ness and humanity, I will not
want to see a woman or man stoned to death.  If a woman would be killed, I would want a less painful death  for her offence. That is my choice.

Robin Lustig: And do you, as head of state, reserve the right to see that your choice is observed?

Obasanjo: My choice in a democracy can only be canvassed. In a dictatorship, my choice of course must be carried. In a democracy, it can only be canvassed. If my choice is not carried, then it is not carried.  I think that is what democracy is about.

Robin Lustig:  Let’s take another caller…Cambridge, Massachusetts, in the USA.  Onyeri carry on..

Onyeri Onumah (USA): About two years, you spoke at Harvard Kennedy School of Government, and you said in that speech “Na Democracy we go chop!” Now, well, about three years later,   Nigerians are pretty much asking the same question, they are still to see the dividend of democracy. As a young Nigerian committed and invested in the future of that country,   if you do decide to stand for re-elections  in 2003, why should I vote for you, and what do have to offer beyond what you have seen or have not seen for the past couple of years?

Obasanjo: Onyeri, wait until that time when I put up my case for re-election.

Robin Lustig: Well, then, let us re-cast the question… What would you say to Nigerians who ask  about what have you achieved over these nearly three years that you have been president?

Obasanjo:  Well, you are not the one asking the question, Robin!  ….But I would say (that we have achieved) a lot.  I have given hope to Nigeria. This is a country about three years ago that was almost in tatters. Today, no serious-minded Nigeria is talking of breaking Nigeria up. Nigerians
today have hope, and when you have hope, you have a lot. Nigerians today feel that they can get
justice. Nigerians today feel that people cannot get away with impunity, unlike before. The fact that we had something like Oputa panel, many people didn’t feel that was possible. You have mentioned
that 3 former heads of state did not come to clear themselves in quotes as it were, but that
does not obviate the fact that this was a significant thing in Nigeria.  Today, an average Nigerian worker takes home a living wage. Three years ago, an average Nigerian was not on a living wage.

Robin Lustig: I have seen figures in recent World Bank figures put two-thirds of Nigerians live below the poverty line, compared with 40% 15 years ago, people seem to be getting poorer in Nigeria.

Obasanjo: Yes, but if I hadn’t come, it would have been three-quarters

Robin Lustig:  Let me read an email from Akeem in Virginia: Would it not have been more respectable if you just served one term, that way you would set an example for  Nigerian future leaders that presidency is not for life?

Obasanjo: I have not looked for presidency for life, but those who quote Mandela must look at the different situations. Obasanjo situation and Mandela situation: are they the same? I will not agree with him, you must be able to say “Yes” Mandela has been to prison before head of state. I  have been head of state before going to prison and I am now again head  of state after going to prison. So our situations are different.

John Barber (Britain): President Obasanjo, how can you and other African heads of state tolerate what is happening in Zimbabwe?

Obasanjo: It depends on what you regard as what is happening.

Robin Lustig: High levels of political violence?

Obasanjo: Well, I went to Zimbabwe. For me and for the Commonwealth ministers who met here in Abuja, all agree that Zimbabwean struggle or issue will not be completed unless the Land Issue be resolved. Any right-thinking man will accept that. The question is how? I asked president Mugabe:  Why did you wait so long? He said that for 20 years, the Constitution given to him by the British does not allow him to move. Maybe that is true.    He can only move when the Constitution is removed from its concrete cast. Then I saw what was going on. Three years ago, In December 1999, Cairo, I brokered a meeting between Robin Cook and Mugabe. From then I continued. What I see is that the more we try to get President Mugabe to move along the line of peace, the more we get something from Britain, including your own organization, to rub him on the wrong side. The last time when I went to him, I took the issue of Elections: there must be observers, he agreed. There must be foreign press: he agreed.  There must be something to do on how you reduce violence: he agreed.

Robin Lustig: Do you see those agreements being translated into action?

Obasanjo: Of course!….  In his own way.  Observers – not Britain….

Robin Lustig:  And other EU!

Obasanjo:  No, some yes, some no. EU and ACP countries.

Robin Lustig:  Do you think that is acceptable?

Obasanjo:  For me, I may not do it that way, but he is a sovereign nation and leader. Maybe I will handle it that way or differently…The point is this: we must also see his own point of view. I don’t Say that he is absolutely right.  He has something that must be listened to.

Robin Lustig: Are you still acting as an honest broker between Britain and Zimbabwe?

Obasanjo:
Well if they make such condition, I will be happy to do that.

Robin Lustig:  Another call from Abioye Abiole in Chiva, Japan.

Abioye Abiola: My question is about Nigerian professionals  living abroad. What is the government doing in order to help Nigerians return to help the situation?

Obasanjo:
Abioye, You have asked a very very good question.  About two years ago, I went to America and Britain and  established NIDO – Nigerians in the Diaspora Organization – in the Americas and in Europe. They are  registered, independent autonomous organization but are given
assistance by Nigerian High Commission in London,  and then Nigerian Embassies all over

Europe and Nigerian Ambassador in Washington and  and Embassies elsewhere in the America. They are already becoming a formidable force.  We have not established NIDO Asia, somewhere central so that those of you in Asia can use as a central contact place.  Now that you have raised the point, we can see what we can do about NIDO Asia……What we are doing, Abioye,  is to get 
you abroad together as a body, rather than deal with your professionals individually. NIDO can do a
lot for itself and it can act as a body of consultants for home government, state,  local,  federal governments, ministries,  parastatals, etc.  To see  what can be done at home.  A lot  is being done. Rather than deal one by one, which will be difficult, but through an organization, you can help yourself. There will be self-help and government help can be done

Michael Ikhariale (Cambridge Massachusetts): Hello my president. In terms of achievement
and overall effectiveness, how would you compare your previous experience as military head of state and present experience as democratically elected  president?

Obasanjo: The two are not the same. One, as military head of state, I am both the
executive and legislature and executive. I don’t have to deal with any legislative body. I make law and I execute it. That makes a world of difference. Achievement  is quicker  and easier, and it can be established and seen. That is one significant difference. As a result of that difference, now I consult, I even have people who do not belong to my party in my government. I have members
of my government in other societies, they have a party and party discipline.  Here, members
of my opposition are members of my party rather than the other party.  That is one of the things that you find when we are doing what we are doing. But one good thing about the democratic dispensation is that it gives everybody a feeling of participating. At least you can be heard, you can make
yourself relevant, not necessarily in terms of being in government but in terms of contributing to government.

Robin Lustig: Do you sometimes find yourself thinking to yourself that this would be easier done if you were a military ruler?

Obasanjo: No.  Even as a military ruler, I have been brought up in a democratic way. Even in my
family, we sit down though I exercise a little power in some essential areas. WE sit down and

Democratically discuss.  I have never longed for the military. Since you ask, that is
why I point out the difference. I will defend the democratic process and dispensation any day.

Robin Lustig: And there we must end it.  President Obasanjo, thank you very much.