ALUKO

You will do well to have on hand my unofficial transcript of president Obasanjo’s “Talking Point” interview with Robin Lustig of the BBC of Saturday, February 16.

Suppose I was a mischievous newspaper editor reporting the interview: What headlines might I decide on? Here are twelve (12) of them that I might consider, with reasons why using excerpts from the transcript:

2.“Obasanjo urges Christian majority-population states to declare Christian Ten-Commandments Law rather than Sharia Law”

3.“Obasanjo Dismisses All Previous Administrations since 1979 As Useless”

4. “Obasanjo Dares Tinubu to show him the Intelligence Reports or Shut up!”

5. Caller Oscar Teddy (from Vienna via Agbor) Stuns Obasanjo: “Just Give Me a Straight Answer; Anyway, You are a Liar, Mr. President!”

6. Obasanjo Stuns the Newspaper World: “You are a Liar, New York Times!”

7. Obasanjo calls the Muslims Mere “Settlers” and Christians “the Authentic Natives” in Jos

10. “Obasanjo Accuses Britain and the Beeb of Deliberate Obstructionist Moves against Mugabe”

11. “PDP President Obasanjo Declares his Own Party as the “Loyal Opposition””

12. “Bolaji Aluko Asks a Howler Question; Obasanjo Shocks Him Almost to Death!”

Lustig: As a Christian do you not see a problem with a system of law which specifies the amputation of a hand for theft, the stoning of a woman to death for adultery?

Obasanjo: Not because of my Christian, Out of my own humane-ness and humanity, I will not want to see a woman or man stoned to death. If a woman would be killed, I would want a less painful death for her offence. That is my choice.

2. “Obasanjo urges Christian majority-population states to declare Christian Ten-Commandments Law rather than Sharia Law”

Lustig: Let me read an email of Frances Guandi in Cameroon. What is your personal stance on Sharia Law and does your administration recognize it?

Obasanjo: Of course. I was the first, when I was Head of State, who put Sharia Law, Court of Appeal in the Constitution of Nigeria. It is part of our Constitution, Sharia is part of the life and soul of a Muslim. In 1978 we had a Constitutent Assembly which reached an impasse on Sharia at Court of Appeal, Federal Court of Appeal or no Sharia Court of Appeal. Because at the State level every state that feel that they have enough Muslims in the population, they have Sharia law.

3. “Obasanjo Dismisses All Previous Administrations since 1979 As Useless”

Obasanjo: You have raised three issues, that I will try and address. One is about security. To say that we are not doing anything is being done about security is not correct. When we came in, I appreciated the need to deal with security, but as much as possible, only in exceptional circumstances that I would want to put military men to do what policemen should do. I believe that Police should do the routine security work. But we are grossly underpoliced. We took over 120,000 policemen to 120 million population. You can see that it was 1 policeman to 1 million. Not only grossly underpoliced, the policemen had very low morale, their welfare very inadequately taken care of, very poorly equipped, outmatched, outgunned by the armed robbers. The first thing we did is to say that we will double the number of police from 120,000 to 250,000 in a space of three to four years….

Lustig: Violence in Nigeria goes before common criminality There is an ethnic and religious dimension. Let me read you an email from Ekwueme Ezike Cologne. What is your government doing to stop the ethnic and religious killings in Nigeria?

Obasanjo: What he calls ethnic or religious killings - not all are ethnic, religious. In a situation of unemplyement all over the world, even in your country, when there is depression, as friendly as they are, they become nasty to foreigners, because they believe that people are taking jobs from them. We have suffered from about 15 years of military rule in this country. What we had was disinvestment, unemployment. No investment coming in. Every little thing, even his brother, rather than tolerate, he becomes impatient. It is part of the decay, the morale of the previous regime that we have to deal with. When we came in, we have to create conducive environment, only private investment to create employment. Without that, then the killing, the violence may go on. it is very very bad vicious circle. How do you break the vicious circle?

Obasanjo: Oscar, it is not about comparison, but how bad your country has been run down by previous administrations. If what I did when I was last in government, if people built on it, it would have been a different story. Let me remind you: There was only Kainji with major power supply in this country, but in my time we built Shiroro (600MW), Jebba (about 540 MW), I planned Egbin completed by the administration that came after me; we built Sapele (Delta) and we increased Afam. But what then happened was that for almost 20 years, there was no addition, if anything it was run down. So when I came in, we were only able to create 1400 MW, not even for a city.

Lustig: But you gave a pledge [ABOUT CONSTANT ELECTRICITY SUPPLY] last year…

Obasanjo: Robin, Robin, wait,wait…. But when I came, I realised I thought that it was the fault of the men, I sacked the first lot, but I discovered that it was not theirs alone but the cumulative fault of the previous administrations…….

Lustig: Well, then, let us re-cast the question… What would you say to Nigerians who ask about what have you achieved over these nearly three years that you have been president?

Obasanjo: Well, you are not the one asking the question, Robin! ….But I would say (that we have achieved) a lot. I have given hope to Nigeria. This is a country about three years ago that was almost in tatters. Today, no serious-minded Nigeria is talking of breaking Nigeria up. Nigerians today have hope, and when you have hope, you have a lot. Nigerians today feel that they can get justice. Nigerians today feel that people cannot get away with impunity, unlike before. The fact that we had something like Oputa panel, many people didn’t feel that was possible. You have mentioned that 3 former heads of state did not come to clear themselves in quotes as it were, but that does not obviate the fact that this was a significant thing in Nigeria. Today, an average Nigerian worker takes home a living wage. Three years ago, an average Nigerian was not on a living wage.

Lustig: I have seen figures in recent World Bank figures put two-thirds of Nigerians live below the poverty line, compared with 40% 15 years ago, people seem to be getting poorer in Nigeria.

4. “Obasanjo Dares Tinubu to show him the Intelligence Reports or Shut up!”

Lustig: What do you say to the Governor of Lagos who said the other day that many of the recent troubles in Nigeria - violence in Lagos, police strikes, arms dump explosion - were all part of the plot of the retired generals to destabilize democracy in Nigeria.

Obasanjo: Let him point out the retired generals and they will be dealt with.

5. Caller Oscar Teddy (from Vienna via Agbor) Stuns Obasanjo: “Just Give Me a Straight Answer; Anyway, You are a Liar, Mr. President!”

Oscar: Yeah, I read that on the Internet. I saw that. It is nice you went to my place Sir.. Ehen, ehnen ! I thank you for being at Agbor, Sir. I have two questions about electricity to ask you. Please sir, I will be very kind if you if you will give me Yes and No answer. Please Yes or no. The first question, sir, Is it true that last year as reported last years there was power failure when your plane was about to land about to land either in Lagos or Abuja. Is it true, yes or no sir?

Obasanjo: Well, it is not as simple as that. I won’t say it is true or not true. What really happened was that they were switching… from the normal general rule is that when I am landing, they should switch on the generator just to make assurance doubly sure, and in the process, there was just a flicker when they were switching from NEPA which was not off.

Oscar: I understand your explanation, but you still fail to convince me. This is because last year, during the Junior World Cup, I was watching in Vienna, and the whole world was watching the Junior World Cup. Electricity went out at National Stadium, Lagos, meaning sir, there was indeed power failure….

6. Obasanjo Stuns the Newspaper World: “You are a Liar, New York Times!”

Lustig: You were quoted in the New York Times as saying that “Nigeria is steadily suffering from the suffocating influences of violence and lawlessness”

Obasanjo: I don’t know where you got that quote. Those could not be my words. The New York Times must have manufactured that.

7. Obasanjo calls the Muslims Mere “Settlers” and Christians “the Authentic Natives” in Jos

Lustig: Still on the question of Sharia, Do you see any connection between its extension and application to many Northern states and the increase in violence between Christians and Muslim communities in Nigeria?

Obasanjo: I would not say “No” and “Yes”, because I would like to see it proven, statistics and how. Yes, There is a coincidence of timing. Take Kaduna where we had the first blow out. For one or two reasons, Kaduna has always been a hotbed. Jos had been quiet for many many years. There have always have been Natives, settlers. Natives were mainly Christians, settlers were mainly Muslims. That also has been there for many many years

Onyeri Onumah (USA): About two years, you spoke at Harvard Kennedy School of Government, and you said in that speech “Na Democracy we go chop!” Now, well, about three years later, Nigerians are pretty much asking the same question, they are still to see the dividend of democracy. As a young Nigerian committed and invested in the future of that country, if you do decide to stand for re-elections in 2003, why should I vote for you, and what do have to offer beyond what you have seen or have not seen for the past couple of years?

Obasanjo: Onyeri, wait until that time when I put up my case for re-election.

Lustig: Let me read an email from Akeem in Virginia: Would it not have been more respectable if you just served one term, that way you would set an example for Nigerian future leaders that presidency is not for life?

Obasanjo: I have not looked for presidency for life, but those who quote Mandela must look at the different situations. Obasanjo situation and Mandela situation: are they the same? I will not agree with him, you must be able to say “Yes” Mandela has been to prison before head of state. I have been head of state before going to prison and I am now again head of state after going to prison. So our situations are different.

10. “Obasanjo Accuses Britain and the Beeb of Deliberate Obstructionist Moves against Mugabe”

Obasanjo: Well I went to Zimbabwe. For me and for the Commonwealth ministers who Met here in Abuja, all agree that Zimbabwean struggle or issue will not be completed unless the Land Issue be resolved. Any right-thinking man will accept that. The question is how? I asked president Mugabe: Why did you wait so long? He said that for 20 years, the Constitution given to him by the British does not allow him to move. Maybe that is true. He can only move when the Constitution is removed from its concrete cast. Then I saw what was going on. Three years ago, In December 1999, Cairo, I brokered a meeting between Robin Cook and Mugabe. From then I continued. What I see is that the more we try to get President Mugabe to move along the line of peace, the more we get something from Britain, including your own organization, to rub him on the wrong side…….

11. “PDP President Obasanjo Declares his Own Party as the “Loyal Opposition””

Michael Ikhariale (Cambridge Massachusetts): Hello my president. In terms of achievement and overall effectiveness, how would you compare your previous experience as military head of state and present experience as democratically elected president?

Obasanjo: The two are not the same. One, as military head of state, I am both the executive and legislature and executive. I don’t have to deal with any legislative body. I make law and I execute it. That makes a world of difference. Achievement is quicker and easier, and it can be established and seen. That is one significant difference. As a result of that difference, now I consult, I even have people who do not belong to my party in my government. I have members of my government in other societies, they have a party and party discipline. Here, members of my opposition are members of my party rather than the other party. That is one of the things that you find when we are doing what we are doing………

12. “Bolaji Aluko Asks a Howler Question; Obasanjo Shocks Him Almost to Death!”

Aluko: Mr President Sir, this is Bolaji Aluko from Burtonsville, USA, via Ode-Ekiti .

Aluko: Yes sir! Emi ni sir! You have not been to Ekiti State yet to visit, but we are looking forward to it, Sir!

Obasanjo: Robin, Robin, I know him well! Bolaji, I was in Washington not too long ago to see George, when some “black men” heckled me outside a hotel protesting some things that happened in Nigeria. Anyway, what is your question?

Aluko: Thank you sir! I have two questions. My first question is this, Sir: I know that you have a sharp tongue, a quick temper and a brusque manner. For example, in 1998 you banged a phone in my right ear, and it still hurts. In 2000, you refused to shake my hands at Okadigbo’s Apo House opening on the day the Kuta panel was inaugurated. In 2001, you took a whip and beat up a security guard who was mistreating some citizens in Ilorin or so in a public arena. Then in Atlanta, at a convention of Nigerians in the Diaspora, you told one hapless Igbo lawyer to “Go to Hell!” More recently, you declared a prominent and eminent Nigerian economist with the same last name as myself as “senile” for criticizing your economic policies and comparing it unfavorably with Abacha’s. You proceeded to call Dim Odumegwu Ojukwu of Biafra fame “mad” for hinting that the Igbos might still go the way of secession if their marginalization continue. You declared all ASUU members morally bankrupt (ie sleeping with their students), wine-bibers (ie always in Staff club), and behaving more childishly than their students for striking all the time. Then on Monday January 28, you told some bomb blast victims at Ikeja cantonment to “Shut Up! You are not even happy that I am here!” for shouting at you. Then finally when Prime Minister Tony Blair was visiting Abuja just a few days ago, you seized the microphone and said that all your critics were “ignorant.”

Mr. President sir, I humbly ask - when will you stop all of these unpresidential outbursts?

Lustig: My oh my, what a question! Ehn, Mr. President, did you do all of those things that the professor stated?

Obasanjo: Robin, Robin….calm down. Well, Bolaji, thank you for asking your first question. In fact, all week, this is the ONLY question that I had been preparing for with Prof. Jerry Gana, because all those earlier ones were softball questions. Your children play softball in America, don’t they? Well, Bolaji, I am under tremendous pressure as president, so some of these outbursts, I just can’t control them. But rest assured that I have talked to Stella, who will pray with me every morning to ask God to help me to watch my tongue and temper. She has agreed to occasionally stomp on my feet in public when I start on any particularly nasty road. I have also talked to my personal Pastor Prof. Obaje who will fast and pray for me for more spiritual temperance. Finally, I have talked with my right-hand-man-for-life Vice-President Abubakar Atiku who will take more official load off my chest as from now on.

So Bolaji, I apologize to you profoundly for banging the phone on you and not shaking your hand. Too many people were urging me to run around that phone period – and you were asking too many questions about my candidacy. Also, maybe I did not recognize you at Apo Mansion, although I recognized your father, mother, and Senator Brother, that rascal who is PDP leader of the opposition in the Senate! I apologize to that Igbo fellow at Atlanta who I said “Go to Hell!” to, because I don’t want to meet him there. I have promoted that security person who I caned, and his salary is now double. Please help me convey my deepest apologies to Sam your father: he is not senile. Chief Sunday Awoniyi was right on that score about Sam and myself. Sam is my very good friend, but that Abacha name sends my blood pressure high. As to General Ojukwu, that was just soldier-to-soldier jesting; the Eze Ndiigbo Gburugburu knows that! But anyway, I should not have said that. As to ASUU, what I said to them was way too much: please tell your professor-colleagues to find it in their heart to forgive me. As to those Ikeja cantonment people that I said “Shut Up!”, aha, did you not read that I had apologized to them, that I did not know that 1000 people had drowned at Oke Afa and Pako Canals? Also, I thought those women and children were soldiers too – just a case of mistaken identity! And you know, soldier-to-soldier, we say those kinds of things – but I will be careful next time! And as to calling all my critics ignorant, I take that back: that was ignorantly said.

Will you forgive me, brother Bolaji? Will you find it in your Christian heart to forgive me?

Lustig: Prof, Prof, are you there? Your second question? Did you tell us offline that it would be about Ige, Frayo and Keyamo? Are you still there?

[In the background, an ambulance’s siren is wailing…a lot of shuffling of feet.]

A Voice is heard speaking into the phone: Mr. Lustig, this is the ambulance service. Mr. Aluko has just fainted apparently due to the response of the president. He must not have been expecting it. We are now reviving him.

Lustig: Thank you. I hope he survives it. With that, viewers, we must abruptly terminate this interview. It was nice having you Mr. President, but this is the first time that we have had a caller faint from a response.

Obasanjo: Don’t mind him! He was expecting me to abuse him! On BBC? He doesn’t know me!