Between Muslims And Jews

Between Muslims And Jews: A Discussion With An American Economist And A Scottish Educationist

Ibraheem A. Waziri

Iya Abubakar Computer Centre, Ahmadu Bello University , Zaria

What follows is a fragment of a series of debates between an American Economists, Jack Fulcher a Scottish Educationtist, David MacEwan Hill and my humble self as they appeared on the pages of Kanoonline.com discussion Forum. Many issues were discussed ranging from Shari’a legal theories, faith and the politics of secularism and religion. This particular section of the debate, as I reproduce here, tried to examine the relationship between the Muslims and the Jews in this modern world and the role of American government in the sight of an American in the Middle East conflict resolution or otherwise. I pray we will all find reason to learn from the inputs made in this from different quarters as we move deeper into our discussions of the problems of the Middle East and its solutions.

In the other thread Mr Fulcher insinuated that there is some sentiments on this board that Hitler was right in what he did to the Jews. That is the sole reason why I come up with this so that we can try to understand, stand but certainly not overstand the Jewish and Muslims questions as they are right from the on set. First let us see what the chairman of the school of Oriental Studies , Hebrew University , Jerusalem , says about our religions: “In a recent French-Algerian publication, Islam has been characterized as Judaism with universal tendencies. There is some truth in this definition.” Prof. S.D. Goitein in his book: Arabs and Jews, page 35.

About our attitude to the Jews he says: ”The Jewish historians of the nineteen century, as in the case of Graetz(the author of a classic ten-volume history of Jews), who were deeply embittered by the contrast between enlightened ideas of that century and the denial of civic rights to the Jews in many European countries, pointed out most emphatically that the legal and actual position of the Jews during the middle ages was much better in Muslim Arab countries than in Christian Europe; and the 'golden age' of Judaism in Muslim Spain has become a phrase which has found its why even to the most popular accounts of Jewish history.” Jews and Arabs, page 7

Why then Mr Fulcher thinks and believes we are happy with what Hitler did to the Jews? For God's sake is not the question the other way round? That is, why is it that the Jews are happy doing to us what was done to them by Hitler?

Hear this good-seeking Jew: “How was it possible I wondered, for people endowed with so much creative intelligence as the Jews to think of the Zionist Arab conflict in Jewish terms alone? Did they not realize that the problem in Palestine could, in the long run, be solved only through friendly cooperation with the Arabs? Were they so hopelessly blind to the painful future, which their policy must bring? - To the struggles, the bitterness and the hatred which the Jewish island, even if temporarily successful, would forever remain exposed in the midst of a hostile Arab see? And how strange, I thought, that a nation which had suffered so many wrongs in the course of its long and sorrowful Diaspora was now, in single-minded pursuit of its own goal, ready to inflict a grievous wrong on another nation, too, THAT WAS INNOCENT OF ALL THAT PAST JEWISH SUFFERING. Such a phenomenon, I knew, was not unknown to history; but it made me, nonetheless, very sad to see it enacted before my eyes” Leopold Weiss is a jounalist, Autrian-German Jew, then a special Correspondent with Frankfurter Zeitung.

Okay now Mr Fulcher why all these, why are they constantly on a fight with us? I think it is these things we are suppose to be discussing here. We are supposed to be raising placards saying: “The world is watching” to them, not to our implementation of Shari’a, which suggests stoning only when a crime is perpetrated.

Ibraheem A. Waziri, Nigeria

Mr. Fulcher responds:

Mr. Waziri,

I was referring to an exchange I saw in your “War on Iraq ” thread, among some members on 3/19/03 and 3/20/03.To their credit, two among the posters disagreed strongly with the view: “Hitler did the right thing.” I was just disturbed that someone with the intelligence generally exhibited by the posters in this Forum would suggest that Hitler was anything less than a monster and disaster for Europe , Jews, Gypsies, other “undesirables” and the Germans themselves.

As for why the Muslims and Jews fight so much, I really do not know. I am neither a Muslim nor a Jew, and have not paid much attention to the conflict in the Middle East , so I can only guess. It seems to me that the insertion of Jews into what is now Israel by the Europeans after World War II was an insane act of a guilty conscience. Certainly neither the British nor the Americans paid much attention to the problems of the Jews in the mid-1930s, and there was much anti-Semitism in both countries (and throughout Europe), and we all turned the other way when we got reports of harassment, oppressive new laws, and the occasional murder of Jews. However, the revelation of what Hitler and the Germans had done to them in the concentration camps during the war was an immense shock, which made it difficult to ignore their cries for a homeland where they could be masters of their own fate. For centuries their host European countries had persecuted the Jews, and for most of us this was a new fact that made us ashamed, I guess (I was born after the war, so I can only guess how people felt from reading history books). So we said: Why not give them their own country in an area they are interested in, like Palestine ? The attitudes of those already living in the area were not considered much, I guess, or the British assumed that most were nomads and did not have much claim to the land anyway. Who would want to own that stinking desert, so why not give it to the Jews and get them out of our hair and make them happy? This seems typical of the thinking at the time, as silly as it sounds now.

I am making a lot of this up, and I am sure there is millions of people who read this Forum regularly who know much more than I do about this history. My attitude has always been to let them fight, because they seem to hate each other so much anyway. Not very enlightened, I admit. But what do you do about someone who seems to want to persecute the Palestinians the way the Germans persecuted the Jews in the mid-1930s? And what do you do about someone who makes heroes of kids who wrap themselves in dynamite and blow up other kids on a bus or in a market? Both sides seem to be out of control with religious and class hatred. I agree that the $4 billion of aid we send to Israel every year is wrong, even though we send $2 billion to Egypt each year as well (something that came out of the Camp David accords with Sadat, I think). There are many Americans who are opposed to sending anything to either country, but it would be impossible to stop this because of the strength of the Jewish lobbies in this country. The Jews have worked hard since they started to come here at the beginning of the 20th century. They value education, and becoming a doctor or lawyer is one of the most cherished goals of a young Jew. Since this is a democracy, their wealth and organization has paid off. They can be counted on to vote and to donate to candidates who they like, so they have great influence. If Muslims were to put the same efforts into developing their careers and fortunes, which is available to them in this country, they too could wield influence, but they have not done this yet.

So we agree on this basic point, Mr. Waziri. The actions of the state of Israel are bad. One of the Jewish people I play bridge with told me that Israel will have to answer for their treatment of the Palestinians some day. Many Jews in this country are uncomfortable with what Israel has done under Sharon , especially the settlements. However, they also realize that the Arabs are generally in favour of destroying Israel , not living with them. Hence the Israelis believe they need to be tough with folks who are trying to blow them up, bus by bus, and who are funded by such “moderate” Arabs as the Saudis. Until both sides get tired of fighting, like in Ireland , we are likely to have a mess there for some time.

Jack Fulcher , California , USA

Waziri responds:

For Mr Fulcher who says “As for why the Muslims and Jews fight so much, I really do not know. I am neither a Muslim nor a Jew, and have not paid much attention to the conflict in the Middle East , so I can only guess.” I really wonder why you've never paid much attention to the conflict in the middle east, to know why human beings are mercilessly massacred up there, but instead felt it more expedient to squeal when we say adultery is a crime worth capital punishment down here, to the extent that you have to chant “the world is watching” to us. I really wonder. I really wonder why your dispositions in regard to our legal theories seem so complacent unlike those you attach to the Middle East issue, which are accompanied with “I guess”. Mr Fulcher, are we being fair to humanity? How can you put it that “Muslims and Jews fight so much” when it is clear that it is genocide that is going on there where a whole group of people are being exterminated every day, not a fight where the two parties involved have a chance of winning?

You see, Mr Fulcher one cannot boast understanding world politics, economics and legal theories without a good knowledge of Jewish-Muslim conflicts. True to God anything that happens in the world right from the days of the crusades has one to one relationship with Jewish-Muslims conflict. Some historians say, “History is nothing more than the story of Jews and Muslim”. I will continue to discuss this matter as our discourse continues unless when I see sentiment is clearly overruling; then I hold my peace. But Jews have always been in charge of the Europe and America that gave them Palestine displacing the population living their without providing an alternative place for them to reside; The population that never knew any other home apart from Palestine .

And Mr. Fulcher you dare ask: “But what do you do about someone who seems to want to persecute the Palestinians the way the Germans persecuted the Jews in the mid-1930s?” It is very simple. You only gather around and do to them what you did to the Germans when they persecuted the Jews, in your own words again:

”However, the revelation of what Hitler and the Germans had done to them in the concentration camps during the war was an immense shock which made it difficult to ignore their cries for a homeland where they could be masters of their own fate. For centuries their host European countries had persecuted the Jews, and for most of us this was a new fact that made us ashamed, I guess (I was born after the war, so I can only guess how people felt from reading history books). So we said: Why not give them their own country in an area they are interested in, like Palestine ?”

You can see why we then say since we do not have helpers let us all die together, let them see that they cannot continue to live on our misery as nature ruled, in the words of our great poet Alhassan Babajo who says:
If you kill people you are killing yourself

The more you harm others the more you harm yourself

It is a reflecting mirror and the reflection is yourself

The boomerang is boomeranging and the target is yourself

Danny Ben-tal, a young Jewish soldier who spent time in Gaza Strip in 1989, in his submission, also confirms this, saying:

”Whenever a youth hurls a rock at me, I cannot but feel guilty, in the knowledge that were I in his situation I would also be throwing rocks.”

And Mr Fulcher, though you appear to be fair but I can see you are trying to justify there positions by saying: ”The Jews have worked hard since they started to come here at the beginning of the 20th century. They value education, and becoming a doctor or lawyer is one of the most cherished goals of a young Jew. Since this is a democracy, their wealth and organization has paid off. They can be counted on to vote and to donate to candidates who they like, so they have great influence. If Muslims were to put the same efforts into developing their careers and fortunes, which is available to them in this country, they too could wield influence, but they have not done this yet.”

Does this means if we become strong today we can do whatever we like only for others to say it is because we work hard? You see this is one of the sole reasons why we don’t like those Western philosophies that prescribed for man the reason: SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST. We see the theory of evolution that nurtured that philosophy and sold it as scientific truth as an intellectual treason, the worst crime ever committed to our intellect. After all why is it that we Muslims did not do the same to the Jews and Christians when we were on the lead? True to God the present empire of greater Israel is the worst thing that ever happened to mankind. Read the following link in order to see how we come about Islamic fundamentalism and the activities of the “Muslims terrorist” that never are:

http://www.davidduke.com/writings/howisraelcaused911.pdf

I will conclude this post with the following comments by The London Times, May 8, 1920 . That was after the 1st world war, after Germany has been tasked with the payment of compensations of damages incurred to the rest of the world: “HAVE WE BEEN STRUGGLING THESE TRAGIC YEARS TO... EXTIRPATE THE SECRET ORGANISATION OF GERMAN WORLD DOMINION ONLY TO FIND BENEATH IT, ANOTHER MORE DANGEROUS BECAUSE MORE SECRET? HAVE WE... ESCAPED A PAX GERMANICA ONLY TO FALL INTO A PAX JUDAECA?”

Ibraheem A. Waziri, Nigeria

Mr. Fulcher responds:

Well, Mr. Waziri, at least you are honest. You are apparently a disciple of David Duke, as this is the second time you have quoted or referred to his writings. (You did this at least one time earlier, on June 10, in the “I just dunno what you may say”, thread.) As you well know, Mr. Duke is a former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. I am sure that you can find many anti-Israel and anti-Jew writings at his website, to which you provide us a link. I am sure that he appreciates having you as a fan. However, remember that if he takes over the world, he will shoot you right after he has shot all of the Jews. The Klan is best known for their hatred of black people, as you know.

This amazes me, Mr. Waziri. Even al-Hamza hates the Klan, and he is in the habit of accusing those who dare to disagree with him of being members of the Klan. Lionger, Dave Hill, and I will attest to this.

The writings of David Duke and the other Klan members are a great resource for the big Taliban and bin-Laden fans out there. I suggest that you apply for membership, so that the Klan can say that it does not discriminate against black people, even though it hates them.

Is this why you hesitate to condemn Hitler, saying that he was no worse than the Israelis? I agree that the Sharon government is out of control, and that the settlements are illegal, and that they are killing Palestinians every day. But until the Israelis start gassing and murdering millions of Palestinians, they will be way behind Hitler in the competition for “Biggest Genocidal Killer of All Time.” Pol Pot, the Turks, Joe Stalin, the US Army in our old West, and those nice folks in Rwanda are also in the running. In numbers of deaths alone, however, Hitler has a big head start.

You ask why I have not paid a lot of attention to the fighting between Muslim and Jew in the past, but then seem to imply that this conflict is the ONLY think I should have studied. You say, “One cannot boast understanding world politics, economics and legal theories without a good knowledge of Jewish-Muslim conflicts. True to God anything that happens in the world right from the days of the crusades has one to one relationship with Jewish-Muslims conflict. Some historians say 'History is nothing more than the story of Jews and Muslim'.” Well, the world just seems to revolve around you, does it not Mr. Waziri? Who is being arrogant now? Maybe what has happened in China , Russia , Europe and America in the past 500 years has been an unimportant footnote. I will have to tell them to burn their history books and just get the one you seem to have read.

You and your Klan buddies also seem to be under the illusion that you can destroy Israel . Get over it. The US will never allow that, and even if it did, the Germans would never allow it. They are completely consumed with guilt over what they did to the Jews, and they are committed to the continued existence of Israel . Just get over it and get on with your life.

You ask what I mean by working hard to get the same results as Jews have gotten in the US . I mean that there are many Muslims in the US . I work with several of them. They are smart and, if they adopt a strong work ethic and build their careers and fortunes, they can influence US politics as well. In a democracy, as in many other forms of government, an organized, smart and committed group can be very effective and get things done. Do not whine about how unfair the world is to you, or has been to your people. That will not be effective, and it will waste your energies. Study, work hard, save money, and plan well. I hope I do not sound like your parents.

This has nothing to do with survival of the fittest. It has to do with self-improvement and progress. Evolution is a theory in biology about how species change over many generations. I am talking about you and your children. Do not get confused.

And then you quote the London Times from the 1920s? The London Times was notoriously pro-Nazi until well into the 1930s.They probably would have hired David Duke as a writer.

Nice quote from the Israeli soldier, by the way. It is hopeful that some in Israel are sensitive to what is happening. I wonder what would happen to a Palestinian fighter who expressed similar sympathies to the plight of Israelis killed by a terrorist explosion in a market. Would we see his views published?

Have a nice weekend, everyone.

Jack Fulcher , California , USA

David MacEwan Hill writes:

Hi
I thought I would point out that George Bush and Tony Blair look like they will soon be paying the price for their disgraceful attack on Iraq . The people of Britain are turning against Blair now and it looks likely that he will lose his position as Prime Minister. I understand many people in America are now seeing through George Bush's lies as well and the political tide is running away from him. I cannot imagine another US president would allow Sharon to behave the way he does to the Palestinians - but perhaps Jack can tell us more.

Another significant thing has happened as a result of the Iraq conflict. Many more Americans have become aware of the rest of the world and what the rest of the world thinks of America - and it's not good. Personally I can't take seriously a country that allows its citizens to freely go into a shop and buy handguns, rifles and walk about armed. No civilised country would allow such so, although America is mighty, it has a long way to go before it is a society that can tell other people what to do - which it tries to keep doing even to the extent of organising the assassination of heads of state. Let us remember that the CIA hired a young Saddam Hussein to assassinate the leader of Iraq that America didn't like - and look where that brought us to.

Must go.

David MacEwan Hill , Scotland

Mr. Fulcher responds:

Hey Dave. Good points about Blair and Bush. Bush's approval rating for his foreign policy is down to 44 percent, while his overall rating is just above 50 percent. This is down from the high 60s last year. And 53 percent say that the Iraq war was not worth it, according to the same CBS/New York Times poll. Blair is in trouble too, and your form of government makes it possible to remove him when he loses confidence. In the US , we have a presidential election every four years, and the next one is in November 2004. I have no idea how Bush will do in that election, because a year is an eternity in American politics. I think that one reason Bush is doing as badly as he is due to the downturn in the economy. If the economy improves next year, he will probably be re-elected. However, his father lost the 1992 election to Clinton because the economy was in a downturn then. As Clinton 's campaign manager said, “it's the economy, stupid!”

As for my own view on the war, Iraq was not high on my list of countries to invade to fight terrorists. If we want to go after them, why not try Yemen , Saudi Arabia , Iran , or even Pakistan first? Iraq didn't have much to do with bin-Laden. I think that Bush was just trying to finish what his father started, and he was mad that Saddam tried to have his father killed. I think the world is much better off without the Baath Party, Sadam, and his sons, mind you; remember that Sadam killed more Muslims than anyone in history. I just don't think they thought this thing through.

If Bush gets beat next year, will the Democrat be more balanced toward Israel ? Not much chance of that. Remember that Sharon was building those stupid settlements all through the Clinton administration in the 1990s. Remember that the Democratic Party has more Jewish participation than the Republican Party, and, although it is probably hard to believe, Bush has been harder on Sharon than Clinton ever was. Bush is trying to do something about the problem in his own way, I think, by making the whole area a little safer for the Israelis, or at least that is his plan. If Israel feels like terrorists won’t blow them up, maybe they will be more willing to give the occupied territories back to the Palestinians.

It is an interesting point you make, Dave, about guns. Remember that when the British still ran things here, before 1776, the army would confiscate guns from the people here, and that was resented. I do not own a gun myself, never even shot a gun, but having gone throught the anti-war movement of the 1960s and 1970s, I am not sure it is such a good idea that only the police and the army have guns. I do not trust authority, and I think that power should be in the hands of the people, not the police. The downside, of course, is that guns are dangerous. If we had a gun in the house, my wife would probably have shot me by now.

If I had my way, handguns would be banned, but everyone could have a rifle. Something like that. No Uzis. But I think that it is a tribute to our civilization that we have so many guns but no rebellions. Just knuckleheads in Texas getting drunk and shooting up the family car.

And what civilized country spells it “civilised?” Get real.

Jack Fulcher , California , USA .

Mr. David responds:

”Civlised” is an word in the English language and the English spell it “civilised” along with most of the English-speaking world except America which keeps putting zeds (or zees,as you call them) into English words in place of the original esses. Language is about communication, however, and not spelling so I won't labour the point (or labor the point, as Americans might put it).

In UK we have a law against the carrying of offensive weapons - as has most of Europe and much of the civilised world. This includes not only guns but also knives and any other implement that might be judged to in someone's possession for offensive us. Such a law would probably save the lives of about 2000 Americans each year but perhaps that's not important. But I repeat I cannot take America seriously until it does something about this. In the meantime there are more people shot dead in any one large American city in any year than there are in the whole of the Uk .

Robert Burns - Scotlands national poet - said “I wish some pow'r the giftie'd gie us tae see oorsels as ithers see us.” To translate that out of Scots dialect into English it means it would be very useful and instructive to most of us if we were aware of what other people thought of us rather than just deluding ourselves. More on this anent America and its profile in the world abroad tomorrow as I'm falling asleep at this screen.

Dave MacEwan Hill , Scotland

Mr. Fulcher responds:

HEY DAVE! WAKE UP!! It's only 5:30 PM here in California . Time to party. I don't know why the rest of the English speaking world uses S when we use Z. I remember it was a topic in one of my literature classes in college (well into the last century), but I forget what was said. Something about how the Germans here influenced spelling. The American language is a conglomeration of English, German, some French, and none of it spelled especially well. Also, when Samuel Johnson wrote his dictionary it was a lot different than the one written by Noah Webster, the one used here more. This business of spelling things correctly wasn't very important until about the beginning of the 20th century. Now my spell check on my MS Word program automatically changes “rationalise” to “rationalize.” Pretty soon none of this will matter.

As for guns, I live near Oakland so am aware that handguns kill. All of life is a tradeoffs, however, so it is not enough to say that you have fewer gun deaths. What do you give up for that added safety? If the Scots were armed to the teeth, they'd be able to break away from England tomorrow. As it is, all the English have to do is send a few soldiers into every town, and your rebellion would be over. I'd like the world to be one where we could resolve these changes through discussion and polite meetings, but nothing gets something done quickly like violence. Look at how the world has changed since the 9/11 incidents. I know that what I am saying is cynical, and I really don't know how much of it I really believe, but casual empiricism should tell you that people without the guns get pushed around by people with the guns. We needed to use guns to get the English to leave America , and so did the Canadians. No amount of civilised (I spelled it like that just for you, Dave) talk and persuasion would have worked. That is why they wanted us to turn in our guns. They understood power.

On the other hand, stay out of certain parts of Oakland after dark. This is why I say that we should limit handgun ownership, because they're too easy to take out of the drawer and shoot someone. Go back to sleep.

Jack Fulcher , California , USA

Waziri responds:

So Mr. Fulcher , now I get the logic, I made reference to David Duke twice and that made me his disciple.
Now since you are making reference to my post of June 10, I will only lie in the wait for you to make another reference to another post of mine again. Then I will conclude that you are my disciple. How do you like that? Mr. Fulcher, do not be a defeated sore. You read David Duke, when you see he is telling the truth you believe him. When you see he is not telling the truth you disprove him. This is the tradition in any intellectual debate; so do not talk of David Duke using Waziri. David Duke knows very well, perhaps more than you do, that we can match him wit by wit, edge of brain by edge of brain. All we say is let us all learn to be fair to one another. When a truth is told we say it is the truth. I think this will make us appear to be more civilised.

Hear Dukes speaking:

“Every terrorist involved in the September attacks, which caused the death of thousands of Americans on September 11, should suffer the ultimate punishment for his crime. No person or nation that commits terrorism against America should escape punishment. But now I am going to make a statement that may well shock you. If you agree that those who commit terrorist acts against America should be punished, then America should put Israel at the top of our hit list; for in this article, I will prove that Israel has committed deliberate acts of murderous terrorism against America and has responsibility for the carnage of September 11, 2001 . I will show that Israel has committed more continuing terrorism in the last half century than any other nation on earth. Then, I will expose Israel ’s record of terrorism and treachery against the United States of America . Finally, I will show the shocking facts proving that Israel 's extremist government, under the leadership of mass-murderer Ariel Sharon, treacherously abetted the 9-11 catastrophe. Israel ’s acts of terrorism and treachery against America have not only gone unpunished, but have been rewarded by politicians who have treasonously betrayed the United States .”

Yes, he says he would prove, so do not worry, Listen to him. If he proves... we are all waiting for your disprove here. And it appears like you do not know that theory of evolution long ago left the areas of biology only to start commenting on social sciences? Read your books thoroughly. You will see Social Darwinism, which brought about the reason: Survival of the fittest.

So you dare mention big time killers like Joe Stalin and Pol Pot. Go and find out now who armed them with that philosophy which demanded those killings. You will see that they were the Jews like Karl Marx who wrote the theories and the leaders of the Russians Bolshevik Revolution who actualised it.

So America is yet to see the Jews gassing the Palestinians. Were you not the one who said: “But what do you do about someone who seems to want to persecute the Palestinians the way the Germans persecuted the Jews in the mid-1930s?” Or the massacre of Sabra and Shatilla is not enough a proof? You the Americans, you keep shooting us on the knees curbing our progress only to reiterate, saying it is we who are not progressive in thought. Let you know that it is a tide, which sooner or later will turn against you. Mhm... I hear Mr. David here speaking. This is only our fervent plea, as one writer would put it:

”In the olden times every leader worked for the good of his own nation alone. The others were considered adversaries, or subjects of exploitation. There was no regard to any value but that of superiority and personal glory. For the sake of this, many morals, ideals and values were wasted; many unethical means were justified; many uncounted souls were made to perish. Lies, deceit, treachery, cruelty reigned as the signs of sagacity and the proof of greatness. Today, this view needs to be changed from its very source. Today, the greatness of a civilized leader ought to be measured by the universality of his vision and his sense of responsibility towards all humankind. The developed world and the Third World are but one family. Each human being bears responsibility towards it by the degree of what he has obtained of knowledge, wisdom, and civilization. I would not be exceeding the limits of my duty if I told thom in the name of the Third World: Be not spectators to our miseries. You have to play therein a noble role befitting your status. From your position of superiority you are responsible for any misdirection of animal, or plant, to say nothing of Man, in any of the four corners of the world. We have had enough of words. Now is the time for action. It is time to end the age of brigands and usurers. We are in the age of leaders responsible for the whole globe. Save the enslaved in the Africa… Save the famished in Africa! Save the Palestinians from the bullets and the torture! Nay, save the Israelis from profaning their great spiritual heritage! Save the ones in debt from the rigid laws of economy! Draw their attention to the fact that their responsibility to Mankind should precede their commitment to the laws of a science that Time has perhaps overtaken.”

Ibraheem A. Waziri, Nigeria